Killing in the Name of America

Someone recently commented on my posting of some other blogger's article. Allow me to post his comments in full and then with my reply.

I would have to disagree that there is any problem or "idolatry" in a church when it chooses to let boy scouts (or anyone for that matter) lead the pledge of allegiance in the worship service. This is based on several factors. The first is that swearing allegiance and loyalty to another entity, in this case the USA, is not worship (please hold saying something to the tune of "that's exactly why it shouldn't be in a WORSHIP service", I'm getting to that part). This swearing of allegiance is the willingess to say that one will defend and protect that entity with their lives. I proudly say the pledge of allegiance. I would die for my country, but I do not live my life for anyone other than God. The two do not conflict. Worship and patriotism are two different things, and neither is synonymous with "idolatry". Bringing Patriotism IN to the church does not create idolatry. It would appear that whoever started that conversation needs to learn the same lesson that non-christians do. That Freedom OF religion does not mean Freedom FROM religion. The two were never meant to be separated. To do so is to first live a lie, and second to be worthless to the world around you. We are no longer to be of the world, but we ARE to be in it, and making a difference. There is absolutely no reason why a church body that has come together to worship God, cannot also be reminded of, and teach younger children, the fact that we live in a great, FREE, able to worship nation, and that it is a good thing to be willing to step up and defend that which our forefathers and hundreds of thousands of men and women have died to ensure that we have in that church building. It is not wrong to teach our children and remind other adults, that while we do not kill in the name of God anymore, but instead turn the other cheek on account of his name, that we do still have to sometimes kill to defend the ground that we freely walk on and enjoy every day. It is not a fun thing to teach, but it is a reality, because there are those that would see this free ground, and the freedoms we enjoy be stripped from us. Having a church that refuses to teach on moral, and societal issues, is to have a church that is no good to the community around it. In fact it is a waste of perfectly good real estate, because all that happens in that case is a bunch of well-meaning christians come together to praise God and feel good and then leave not knowing any more than they came in with about how to act and react in the world in which they live. No offense brother, but they can get that from a praise CD and personal Bible study or small group study. The church is to be a place of corporate and personal worship. It's primary importance is the declaration, communion with, praise of, and committing to God. That does not, however, rule out the remembrance of thanking God for one of our greatest gifts...this free country. Nor does it rule out pledging defense and loyalty (not worship) to that country. If that is a pledge you would not make, then you're a coward, and do a dishonor to those who have died for this country, many who have cited freedom of religion as one of their main reasons for being willing to go to War. To be a "conscientious objector" is to misunderstand God's word. Killing and murdering are two different things. One is wrong, the other is not. I personally do not ever wish to harm or kill another human being, but before I make my country draft me, I will enlist and do just that to defend this nation. The Bible has no problems with self-defense, and therefore neither do I. So let's look at this picture. In a war, I stand to lose everything else that my fellow Americans do if we are ever on the ultimate losing side. I also stand to lose a little more, because those who would take us over would see Christianity done away with. There went the best freedom I possess, the ability to worship my God without persecution from the government. If someone is willing to kill me because they don't like my country, they aren't going to care if I'm an objector to war or not. Either way I grow a few ounces of lead heavier. If you wish to not say the pledge and take up a rifle to defend this nation, I think less of you...I am sorry. But it should not be implied that those who would do those things are idolatrous just because they would do so in a church, therefore not just thanking God with their lips, but thanking God by their actions as well. I say thank you to those who have come before me, who learned the pledges to the American flag, the bible, and the christian flag in Sunday school and church services, who remembered those vows when they grew to me men, and who bled and died because of those vows and had their lives cut short. I say thank you because their sacrifice has given me the ability to walk freely in to a church and worship God today. That same sacrifice also gives me the freedom to learn those same vows (pledges), and to teach them to others, in my own sunday school and service. A Christian is called to give. One way that I believe I can give, is to be willing to give my life in the defense of a country that allows myself, and my family and friends and neighbors to be free. In the meantime, I would gladly give of myself to support and help the teaching of our national pledge, anthem, etc. in a sunday school or church service. God bless our scouts and the church that allowed them to bring in that lesson once again.

And the reply:

I would have to disagree that there is any problem or "idolatry" in a church when it chooses to let boy scouts (or anyone for that matter) lead the pledge of allegiance in the worship service.

Feel free to disagree.

This is based on several factors. The first is that swearing allegiance and loyalty to another entity, in this case the USA, is not worship (please hold saying something to the tune of "that's exactly why it shouldn't be in a WORSHIP service", I'm getting to that part). This swearing of allegiance is the willingess to say that one will defend and protect that entity with their lives.

Exactly, I won’t defend and protect America.

I proudly say the pledge of allegiance. I would die for my country, but I do not live my life for anyone other than God.

I won’t die for my country. I certainly won’t kill for my country.

The two do not conflict. Worship and patriotism are two different things, and neither is synonymous with "idolatry". Bringing Patriotism IN to the church does not create idolatry.

No, it just brings division into the body of Christ.

It would appear that whoever started that conversation needs to learn the same lesson that non-christians do. That Freedom OF religion does not mean Freedom FROM religion.

Actually freedom of religion does mean freedom from religion. I do not have to suffer Islam and paganism if I do not want to. But freedom OF religion does mean mean freedom FROM the state. It’s the state we do not want in our churches.

The two were never meant to be separated.

Yes, they were.

To do so is to first live a lie, and second to be worthless to the world around you.

Is not wanting the state (and the world) intruding on our worship services living a lie?

We are no longer to be of the world, but we ARE to be in it, and making a difference.

Then why bring the world into our churches?

There is absolutely no reason why a church body that has come together to worship God, cannot also be reminded of, and teach younger children, the fact that we live in a great, FREE, able to worship nation, and that it is a good thing to be willing to step up and defend that which our forefathers and hundreds of thousands of men and women have died to ensure that we have in that church building.

But why in church? Why not at home or in school? Why must we do so in church? The Church is bigger than America.

It is not wrong to teach our children and remind other adults, that while we do not kill in the name of God anymore, but instead turn the other cheek on account of his name, that we do still have to sometimes kill to defend the ground that we freely walk on and enjoy every day.

You mean instead of killing in the name of God we kill in the name of America. That is much better.

No, I disagree. Christians should not kill in anyone’s name. Christ said not to so I don’t.

It is not a fun thing to teach, but it is a reality, because there are those that would see this free ground, and the freedoms we enjoy be stripped from us.

But why must we teach it in church?

Having a church that refuses to teach on moral, and societal issues, is to have a church that is no good to the community around it.

That's what the liberal churches said and look what happened to them.

In fact it is a waste of perfectly good real estate, because all that happens in that case is a bunch of well-meaning christians come together to praise God and feel good and then leave not knowing any more than they came in with about how to act and react in the world in which they live.

Yes, let’s teach love of America in church. That’s what the Great Commission is all about.

No offense brother, but they can get that from a praise CD and personal Bible study or small group study.

None taken. But they can get patriotism at home and at school or on television. Why don’t we as a church provide people what they can’t get anywhere else, i.e. the body of Christ, which extends beyond the bounds of America.

The church is to be a place of corporate and personal worship. It's primary importance is the declaration, communion with, praise of, and committing to God.

Then why bring patriotism into the Church … where does the New Testament advocate that?

That does not, however, rule out the remembrance of thanking God for one of our greatest gifts...this free country.

See above. Pledging and thanking are two different things. Putting a flag in a church is much different than thanking God for His blessings. Thanking God for religious liberty is much different than blowing people’s heads off for king and country.

Nor does it rule out pledging defense and loyalty (not worship) to that country.

Won’t catch me pledging to America and certainly not in church.

If that is a pledge you would not make, then you're a coward, and do a dishonor to those who have died for this country, many who have cited freedom of religion as one of their main reasons for being willing to go to War.

I’d rather dishonor men than dishonor God. I am not saying that is what others are doing by being patriotic in church. I am merely stating that I have reached the point in my walk with Christ when I feel I would dishonor God by pledging to anyone but Him and epsecially in a church. Because we live in such a free country with such religious liberty I have the freedom to abstain from acts which run contrary to my faith.

To be a "conscientious objector" is to misunderstand God's word.

Nonsense.

Killing and murdering are two different things.

True and my faith commands me to do neither.

One is wrong, the other is not.

Killing is not wrong? Or do you mean murder is not wrong?

I personally do not ever wish to harm or kill another human being, but before I make my country draft me, I will enlist and do just that to defend this nation.

I’ll either abstain from fighitng or leave the country.

The Bible has no problems with self-defense, and therefore neither do I.

Do as you think the Bible says. I’ll do as I think the Bible says.

So let's look at this picture. In a war, I stand to lose everything else that my fellow Americans do if we are ever on the ultimate losing side. I also stand to lose a little more, because those who would take us over would see Christianity done away with.

The other day you said it was America that was going to do away with Christianity. Can’t another country protect Christendom? Can’t America ever be wrong in a war?

There went the best freedom I possess, the ability to worship my God without persecution from the government.

No one can take away your freedom to worship God. No one.

If someone is willing to kill me because they don't like my country, they aren't going to care if I'm an objector to war or not. Either way I grow a few ounces of lead heavier. If you wish to not say the pledge and take up a rifle to defend this nation, I think less of you...I am sorry.

And I don’t care.

But it should not be implied that those who would do those things are idolatrous just because they would do so in a church, therefore not just thanking God with their lips, but thanking God by their actions as well.

Take it up with the guy who wrote the article, not me. But thanking God by pledging to someone other than Him?

I say thank you to those who have come before me, who learned the pledges to the American flag, the bible, and the christian flag in Sunday school and church services, who remembered those vows when they grew to me men, and who bled and died because of those vows and had their lives cut short.

Notice the “bible” came second.

I learned the Bible in Sunday School. I learned the pledge in school. What is wrong with evangelicals today? We want the Bible taught in secular schools by secular teachers and we want the secular pledge taught in Sunday schools!

I say thank you because their sacrifice has given me the ability to walk freely in to a church and worship God today. That same sacrifice also gives me the freedom to learn those same vows (pledges), and to teach them to others, in my own sunday school and service.

It also gives me the freedom to abstain.

A Christian is called to give. One way that I believe I can give, is to be willing to give my life in the defense of a country that allows myself, and my family and friends and neighbors to be free.

I’d rather give the gospel but that’s just me.

In the meantime, I would gladly give of myself to support and help the teaching of our national pledge, anthem, etc. in a sunday school or church service. God bless our scouts and the church that allowed them to bring in that lesson once again.

And God bless the fact that I don’t go to that church.