"Thinking Eternally, Acting Locally." - Neal August
A good friend of mine who attended the SBC 2006 in Greensboro told me about the incident where, during Condoleeza Rice's speech, she mentioned the killing of al-Zarqawi to the response of a standing ovation from the convention hall.
Of course, that Dr. Rice (a woman in high authority, who drinks alcohol and supports abortion) is a political figure well-followed in the press, it should have been no surprise that news media outlets would carry her speech across the globe.
How nice it was! The whole world has a chance to see the followers of the Prince of Peace and we joyously applaud that another being, created in the image of God and of equal worth with ourselves, has died and gone to hell.
How wonderful! We are against women in authority, we are against abortion, we are against consuming alcohol, we are against killing and war (according to the Baptist Faith and Message 2000), but we are for spreading the Gospel to the places where our featured speaker is bombing.
Now I knew of this standing ovation by the SBC to death of al-Zarqawi a week ago. I knew but waited to see what the response would be. Now I did see a few blurbs on the blogs but little else.
A few weeks ago I understandably had a few comments about my assertion that Muslims and Christians worship the same God - a position that I continue to hold and am pursuing in my thoughts [my conclusions are interesting as well as my ideas on how to evangelize Muslims].
Again, I believe this position to be true and it is, of course, strictly orthodox.
And, of course, there are many in the past who have disagreed with my position on this. One pastor a few years ago argued [my own gist of what he said] that Yahweh and Allah could not be the same god because their personalities as expressed by their followers are different. The god of Jesus is a loving and peaceful god while the god of Mohammed is a blood thirsty war-monger.
...
So either the Yahweh and Allah are the same god or the SBC in Greensboro were worshipping the god of Allah for all the world to see.
Which is it?
6 comments:
If Christians worship Jesus and Jesus is God and muslims don't worship Jesus, then how can muslims and Christians worship the same god?
Most of the "moderate" muslims that I have met or know personally know little of the Koran. I have read over 2/3 of the Koran and actually conclude that the fundamentalists adhere pretty close to what the Koran says.
Travis
Two responses:
1) The Israelites of the days of Moses did not worship Jesus.
2) The Jews of today do not worship Jesus and Jesus is God, then who do Jews worship?
Most conservative Christians accept that Jews worship Yahweh, they just do not see it as saving worship because they reject Jesus. The same is true with Muslims. They worship God but do not do so thru Christ and so it is of no gain.
Mohammed indentified Allah (god) with the God of Adam thru Christ. Today's Muslims identify the Allah as the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus. It does them no good but they do. How about Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons? They worship the God of Jesus. Are they saved? Does it matter?
I've read the Koran to. It's filled with OT ethics, of which it is derived. Hey, read the book of Joshua and the rest of the Law; it is blood-thirsty. Why do we not put people to death for such sins as believers once did? We have the ethic of Christ which supercedes the OT ethic. Hermeneutic of the Muslim Fundamentalists is a literal hermeneutic who take the ethics of Mohammed the way Jews (and some Christians) used to take the ethic of Moses. Moderate Muslims (like 99% of today's Christians) understand the old ethics of the ancient world to be in the past. The only difference is that we hold Christ as our ultimate hermeneutic for the OT and His intepretation is included in our Scriptures.
Really, Muslims in the greater developed nations do not practice the eye-for-an-eye hermeneutic. Eventually, the rest of the Muslim world will cease as well.
1)Israelites of Moses day were not Christians
2) I don't know who Jews worship today, but I know they don't worship Jesus.
You stated correctly...Muslims do not have the Christ that we hold to. They don't interpret their Scriptures throught Christ...you state this is as the only difference and that might be true, but it is a HUGE difference. It makes all the difference in the world...literally.
I conclude that the muslims in the greater developed nations do not practice the eye-for-an-eye because they've never read the Koran nor believe in it (the Koran has much more to say than just ethics though)...they are cultural muslims by birth, but don't practice the religion. I've been in a greater developed muslim country and this was by far the majority of the people. Maybe if the rest of the muslim world stops reading the Koran and believing it, then they too will become like the greater developed muslim nations.
I think it would be interesting to ask former muslims who've converted to Christ if they believe that muslims worship the same God as Christians. Our sister-in-law who recently converted from islam to christianity would tell you that she found the truth in Jesus and now worships the one true God.
Do you think Muslims think we worship the same God as them? Why do they disown their family members who convert to Christianity...this happens even in developed muslim countries?
If we all worship the same God, then why preach the gospel?
Travis
1)Israelites of Moses day were not Christians
True. But were they worshipping the true God?
2) I don't know who Jews worship today, but I know they don't worship Jesus.
True, but do they worship God? And even if they did, does it matter?
You stated correctly...Muslims do not have the Christ that we hold to. They don't interpret their Scriptures throught Christ...you state this is as the only difference and that might be true, but it is a HUGE difference. It makes all the difference in the world...literally.
Of course. No disagreement there.
I conclude that the muslims in the greater developed nations do not practice the eye-for-an-eye because they've never read the Koran nor believe in it (the Koran has much more to say than just ethics though)...they are cultural muslims by birth, but don't practice the religion. I've been in a greater developed muslim country and this was by far the majority of the people. Maybe if the rest of the muslim world stops reading the Koran and believing it, then they too will become like the greater developed muslim nations.
I submit that Christians around the world do not practice Mosaic eye-for-an-eye because of Christ. I submit that most of the non-Christian world also does not practice Mosaic eye-for-an-eye because of Christ and His influence. Don't make me cite OT ethics.
I think it would be interesting to ask former muslims who've converted to Christ if they believe that muslims worship the same God as Christians. Our sister-in-law who recently converted from islam to christianity would tell you that she found the truth in Jesus and now worships the one true God.
Salvation is only thru Christ and has been sense Adam and Moses whether the ancient Hebrews and Israelites (and those that came thousands of years before them knew it or not). Arab Christians worship Allah (i.e., God) thru Jesus Christ and are saved in Jesus Christ. Muslims who worship Allah thru Mohammed are not saved because they are not in Jesus Christ. Jews who worship Yahweh (i.e., God) and reject Christ are not saved. However, there are Jews who do not call themselves Christians but follow Jesus and worship Yahweh thru Jesus; they are saved. Just because some one yells, "Lord! Lord!" doesn't mean that God knows them thru Christ. Maybe "they" were not worshipping God. Maybe they are only now REALLY worshipping God because now they are doing so thru Jesus and God is responding like the father of the prodigal son. Open arms! "Come here my son and daughter! You talked to me but never knew me. You talked but never listened. But now I know you as a son and daughter because you know me thru my first-begotten Son."
Do you think Muslims think we worship the same God as them? Why do they disown their family members who convert to Christianity...this happens even in developed muslim countries?
Many Southern Baptists do not think that we worship the same god as Roman Catholics. Many fundamentalists disown family members who become Catholic. Many Catholics disown family members who become Protestants. Who is right? Do Catholics and Baptists worship the same god? I really do not care what Muslims think about God because they do not know Christ.
If we all worship the same God, then why preach the gospel?
Because worshipping God does not matter in terms of salvation - only Christ matters. Anyone who worships God and rejects Christ cannot be saved no matter how much they worship.
Let's not confuse "worship" with "salvation"; those are not synonymous. We may wish that everyone who bows down to worship God is saved but that is not the case. The Jews of Jesus' generation worshipped God all the time but it did no good because they rejected Jesus Christ. They were never accused of worshipping a false god; they were accused of rejecting the true God's Son and thus God was going to reject them. This is what Scripture teaches whether we like it or not.
good clarification and dialogue. I guess maybe we have a different definition of worship or at least had a different definition...now that I understand what you mean by worship, I can see your logic.
Do you see "worship" as a religious ritual act? an event? By your definition, can a Christian worship someone or something other than Jesus?
Do you see "worship" as a religious ritual act? an event? By your definition, can a Christian worship someone or something other than Jesus?
All the above really. Worship is a lifestyle which one reveres and honors God. It is an ongoing act which should never cease. However, there are times when one puts a special emphasis on worship (bowing down on one’s face and such). There are also times when groups of people put a special emphasis on collective worship (i.e., worship services).
Yes, I do think that a Christian can worship some one other than the Trinitarian God. It’s called idolatry and it haunts us all to one degree or another. We begin to revere things (creatures) more than God (the Creator). Items of idolatry for (contemporary) Christians typically: the self (of course), particular leaders (secular and Christian), nations and cultures (a hot one, that), traditions, the Law; those sorts of things. We all do it to some minor degree or another but there are obviously some things much worse than others, i.e., worshipping false gods, nature and ‘real’ idols and such.
There are times in the Bible where such idolatry or worship makes vain the worship of true God (Mk 7:7; Matt 15:9; Isa 29:13). Thus, even though the Jews of Jesus’ generation worshipped Yahweh, they rejected Yahweh’s Son, which made their worship of God in vain. I think the same is true of Muslims and other monotheistic religions which are off-shoots of the Abrahamic religion. Mohammed himself (a man and a flawed figure) appears to have been of two minds about this subject. He detested idols (‘idols’ in the classic sense of the word) and focused on the one god Allah, which was the god of the Abrahamic religion. However, he sometimes became frustrated with the idolatry of the Arabs of his generations. He once attempted to combine Allah-worship and idol-worship, basically religious syncretism (see Aaron and the golden calf of Ex. 32). He soon repented of this error and abolished idols.
Again, Mohammed’s worship of God never went through Christ and so was in vain, just like the Jews of the NT who rejected Christ.
I like the question and the answer. I think I will post it.
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