"Thinking Eternally, Acting Locally." - Neal August
"The issue you have to address when looking at the Gen 32 passage is that the elohiyim renames and blesses Jacob...if you agree with Westermann on the river demon theory which it appears you do, then how do you explain a river demon blessing Jacob and changing his name? Not only that, but you have to come to terms with Jacob asking an evil spirit for a blessing and I don't think the Cananite mythology of evil deities getting caught is valid for blessing and changing Jacob's name to Israel(32:27). Naming and blessing someone was no little matter, where in Scriptures is there any evidence of anyone other than God or an angel on behalf of God naming and blessing? It makes more sense that this was simply an angel of God under God's reign. Both of these contextual facts make it hard for me to accept Westermann's interpretation.” - Travis
Very good points and questions.
One does not have to be God (Yahweh) or even a “good” person to bless another.
Isaac blesses Jacob (Gen 28:31)
Laban blesses his sons and daughters (Gen 31:55)
Moses and Aaron bless the people (Ex 39:43; Lev. 9:22-23).
Jacob blesses his sons (Gen 49:28)
Melchizedek blesses Abram (Abraham) by El Elyon (Gen 14:19), which Abram quickly identifies as Yahweh El Elyon( v. 22)
One can bless themselves (Jer 4:2)
One can bless an idol (Is 66:3)
One can bless a neighbor and then be cursed (Prov 27:14)
One can bless God (Ps 119; 124; 134; 145:1, 2, 10, 21)
Balaam blessed the Israelites at the consternation of Balak (Numbers 22-24). Note that he did so under the orders of God even though he was also being ordered by Balak to curse them. He could have done either.
Also, the word in Genesis 32 for “bless” (barak) can also mean “curse” or “blaspheme”.
The blessing that Jacob received from the elohiym came after wrestling with it all night long. The elohiym did not want to bless Jacob. It was something that Jacob forced out of the elohiym thru trickery, which is how he got his previous blessing from Isaac.
In Genesis 33, the “blessing” (Barakah) is something that can be given back and forth between Esau and Jacob.
It’s too tough to go with the elohiym as Esau … I really wish it was Esau. It would be far more poetic and a brilliant piece of writing by the J-Writer. Jacob and Esau struggle in the womb, Jacob and Esau struggle by the Jabok river (a pun on Jacob’s name). Jacob gets a blessing again by trickery. However, other than these wonderful coincidences I cannot find any evidence that it is Esau. All the clearly stated evidence is to the contrary.
a) That the “man” was trying to prevent Jacob from fulfilling God’s promise suggests to me that it was a malicious being.
b) Jacob refers to the “man” as an elohiym which suggests that this was not a human but a god or spirit of some sort.
c) Hosea refers to this being as an “angel.” This suggests to me that the being was some sort of spirit being, like an angel, only malicious. Probably some form of “fallen angel”.
Perhaps there is some vicarious or literary (symbolic) connection intended by the author but it’s not clearly stated.
Name changes does not have to come from Yahweh, angels, or parents (whether good or bad).
Hadassah to Esther (Est 2:7)
Daniel to Belteshazzar (Dan 1:7)
Hananiah to Shadrach (Dan 1:7)
Mishael to Meshach (Dan 1:7)
Azariah to Abednego (Dan 1:7)
Eliakim to Jehoiakim (2 Kings 23:34)
Mattaniah to Zedekiah (2 Kings 24:17)
Thus a malicious spirit blessing and renaming is not out of the realm of possibility.
What are the options? God, Angel, “Demon”, Man
It is definitely not God. It’s definitely not a Man. The choices are either an Angel or a “Demon”.
Here are the reasons why I doubt the “good angel” interpretation:
a) In Genesis 32:1-2, when at Mahanaim, Jacob sees angels of God and recognizes them as such. The wrestling incident is only a short time later, he refers to the “man” as a “god” and not an “angel”. If he had just seen angels then we presume he would know another one when he sees it.
b) If an “angel of God” was wrestling with Jacob and preventing him from entering into the promise land it would be theologically tantamount to God trying to prevent Jacob from entering the land because “angels of God” do God’s bidding.
c) I doubt that a mere man like Jacob could overpower an angelic being who was doing the will of God.
Here are the reasons why I prefer the “bad demon” or elohiym interpretation:
a) That the “man” was trying to prevent Jacob from fulfilling God’s promise suggests to me that it was a malicious being.
b) Jacob refers to the “man” as an elohiym which suggests that this was not a human but a god or spirit of some sort.
c) Hosea refers to this being as an “angel.” This suggests to me that later prophets understood the figure as some sort of spirit being, like an angel, only malicious. Probably some form of “fallen angel”.
d) Looking at Canaanite mythology, in the era in which this story takes place, the people of this age and culture did believe in such spirits.
i. Night time was the understood time for spiritual attacks.
ii. Localized spirit-demons were believed to exist in these times. There was an ancient belief the Jabbok river was protected by a localized deity.
iii. Such deities were said to give blessings if they were caught, sort of like the fairy tales of catching gnomes, fairies or leprechauns.
These are the reasons why I think the Scriptures suggest that Jacob wrestled with and elohiym and not a man, God nor ones of his angels.
3 comments:
Your thoughts on possibly a theophany??
V.23 says that he sent all his family, and all his possessions over the river, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. Why send all of your help and support over, and not at least cry out for help. Even at night, someone should have been able to come back across to help him had he so desired.
About the wrestling match, is this a battle of the physical only, or also a battle of the will? My questions are because of the following:
V25 states that the man simply touched the socket of the hip and wrenched it. The hip is the hardest joint in the body to wrench. It is surrounded by the biggest strongest muscles in the body, and to "wrench" one is rare. To "wrench" someone else's is VERY rare, and nigh on to impossible. Such power suggests that Jacob shouldn't have been able to overcome a mere physical battle by strength.
The man tells him in v28 that his name shall not be "deceiver" anymore, but "he struggles with God", or "Israel". This suggests not only a theophany, but also more than a mere struggle of the flesh, but also of the will.
In V.29 Jacob asks the man his name and the man says Why do you ask my name? This implies that Jacob shouldn't need to ask. Could it be that he has been struggling with this same person all of his life and has finally worn it down to a physical confrontation being necessary? Which he lost. The request for Jacob to let him God is not a desperate cry of "oh my the sun is coming up and I'll melt, let me go", it seems a gentle command of I could force you as I just proved, but it's time this battle ended, and this was for you and I alone, we must settle this. Again, possibility of a theophany, and more than a physical battle.
V. 30 states that Jacob called the place Peniel ("face of God") because he said he "saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.". Again, this suggests a theophany and more than a physical match up. Especially since after NOT being told the man's name, Jacob states that he wrestled with God. One could dismiss this as a misunderstanding, except for he finishes with "and lived to tell the tale" suggesting he knew his opponent and how serious a confrontation it had been.
You're correct to rule out Esau, because immediately AFTER this, he looks up and Esau is approaching. If he had just wrestled him, Esau would have been right there. He had not yet faced his brother for his deceptions against him.
Why assume that the "man" is trying to prevent Jacob from fulfilling God's promise? That is never stated, and it's not as if the text says that Jacob was held back. It says he remained alone(indicating on purpose), and a man wrestled with him.
It sounds as if your main two lines of argument are that 1) it sounds malicious to you, and 2) Canaanite mythology. But why enter mythology into the picture, and I've already asked about the "malicous" part.
Jacob has known all of his life that everything he had he had obtained by deceitful means, this would haunt me, and I imagine it would him as well. Being raised to believe in the One True God as he was, it would be understandable that he would recognize him when he met him, and would indicate purpose in him desiring to be blessed outside of trickery for once. It seems this was a dogged determination of Jacob finally realizing he couldn't go forward to the promised land without God being on his side. Again, desiring a blessing.
Thoughts???
Although I can definitely see your reasoning, I still disagree with the demon being as opposed to an angel. In response to 1a) I don't think the elohiyim was preventing Jacob from fulfilling God's promise, but rather the elohiyim is wrestling with Jacob b/c Jacob is not trusting God (see Jacob's prayer and follow up fearful actions in regards to seeing Esau)in the promise God has already made hence the "you have wrestled with God and man"...ie the fact that Jacob is overly fearful of Esau...this especially echoes a good interpretation given the previous verses leading up to the WWE wrestling match. I agree with 1b, it is a spirit=angel. 1c gives good proof that the elohiyiim was in fact an angel...if the elohiyim was a "fallen" angel or demon, why wouldn't Hosea read that way (if one holds to Scripture interprets Scripture, this is quite substantial evidence)?
In response to 2a, the scene is dark and I believe Jacob really doesn't realize who he is wrestling with....furthermore, angels are unique in the way they look and Scripture does seem to portray them looking like men. In response to 2b, see 1a response above...it was God's bidding to have the angel wrestle with Jacob b/c of Jacob's distrust in Yahweh. In a sense, God is teaching Jacob a lesson...a lesson that will be remembered for generations (hip). In response to 2c, the goal of the angel wasn't to overpower Jacob...furthermore, even if the elohiyim was a demon, you still have the same argument to deal with...how could Jacob overpower a spirit demon?
Lastly, see above for response to 3a, 3b, 3c. 3d helps both of our arguments the same. 3i I agree with, although it helps both the same. 3ii and 3iii are on your side, I agree....however, the Hosea text, which is inspired, says angel which I think outweighs any mythology. Furthermore, your points against can be handled as seen above.
Lastly, thanks for the info on names and blessings...this was very insightful. Interestingly, I did notice that there was not one case of a demon or malicious spirit blessing or renaming...only other men, God, or angels. If one holds to the demon theory, one would have to say that this is the only case of a demon blessing and changing a name and the name of the Father of the Jewish nation mind you...this would not sit well with Pat Robertson (smiles).
Your thoughts on possibly a theophany??
There are several theophanies in Genesis (chapters 2-3, and 18 being the most obvious). All are J-Writings. Theophanies are a particular characteristic of J’s style. In these episodes, Yahweh (God) is never identified as iysh (man), he is always identified as Yahweh. He is only once characterized like a man (‘enowsh, Genesis 18) but only because Abraham looks up to see 3 “men” (‘enowsh) two of which are identified as angels. Indeed the passage begins “Yahweh appeared” and then we read” three men” were there. The word is seldom used in the singular and then only in poetry of the post-Exilic writings.
Now Hosea lived 740–725 BCE. Just two hundred or so years after the J-writer wrote the prophet writes:
“The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him. He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed:” (Hosea 12:2-4)
At least Hosea believed it to be an angel and not Yahweh (God).
V.23 says that he sent all his family, and all his possessions over the river, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. Why send all of your help and support over, and not at least cry out for help. Even at night, someone should have been able to come back across to help him had he so desired.
We do not know how far away Jacob was from the rest of the encampment. We do not know if Jacob actually desired help from his servants or family.
About the wrestling match, is this a battle of the physical only, or also a battle of the will? My questions are because of the following:V25 states that the man simply touched the socket of the hip and wrenched it. The hip is the hardest joint in the body to wrench. It is surrounded by the biggest strongest muscles in the body, and to "wrench" one is rare. To "wrench" someone else's is VERY rare, and nigh on to impossible. Such power suggests that Jacob shouldn't have been able to overcome a mere physical battle by strength.
Yet Jacob did prevail in the wrestling match until almost morning. The elohiym was only able to make headway thru a physical act of “touching” hip bone.
The man tells him in v28 that his name shall not be "deceiver" anymore, but "he struggles with God", or "Israel". This suggests not only a theophany, but also more than a mere struggle of the flesh, but also of the will.
The word used here for “god” is elohiym. It can designate either Yahweh “God” or “god” (as in Baal) or “gods” or “goddess” or “godlike” or “ruler” or “angel.”
For example:
“And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress [it] first; for ye [are] many; and call on the name of your gods [elohiym] , but put no fire [under].” (1 Kings 18:25)
In V.29 Jacob asks the man his name and the man says Why do you ask my name? This implies that Jacob shouldn't need to ask.
No, it doesn’t. Pure speculation. And even if the elohiym’s question did mean “You shouldn’t have to ask,” that still doesn’t signify why Jacob shouldn’t need to ask.
Could it be that he has been struggling with this same person all of his life and has finally worn it down to a physical confrontation being necessary?
Is there any evidence that it does mean that?
Which he lost.
That’s just the point. He did not lose. He won! That is clear in the story in Genesis 32 and in Hosea’s interpretation in Hosea 12:2-4.
The request for Jacob to let him God is not a desperate cry of "oh my the sun is coming up and I'll melt, let me go", it seems a gentle command of I could force you as I just proved, but it's time this battle ended, and this was for you and I alone, we must settle this. Again, possibility of a theophany, and more than a physical battle.
The elohyim asks Jacob to let him go.
Jacob tells him he shall do so on 1 condition: that he be blessed.
The battle ends on Jacob’s terms and not the elohyim’s.
This scenario would be odd even if Yahweh was explicitly referenced. It would be even odder given Jacob’s humble prayer to Yahweh in the previous verses 33:9-12. It would be a complete turn around of Jacob’s character arc in his relationship to Yahweh.
V. 30 states that Jacob called the place Peniel ("face of God") because he said he "saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.". Again, this suggests a theophany and more than a physical match up. Especially since after NOT being told the man's name, Jacob states that he wrestled with God. One could dismiss this as a misunderstanding, except for he finishes with "and lived to tell the tale" suggesting he knew his opponent and how serious a confrontation it had been.
The word used here for “god” is elohiym. It can designate either Yahweh “God” or “god” (as in Baal) or “gods” or “goddess” or “godlike” or “ruler” or “angel.”
Let’s reconstruct this:
If Jacob was wrestling with Yahweh then he did not have know until after verse 29. In verse 28 the elohiym states: “Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.” If Jacob realizes here that he is wrestling with a supra-human being, he doesn’t know for sure it is Yahweh because in verse 29 he wants the elohiym to tell his name. Why would he want the person to tell him his name? He already knew it. Regardless, the elohiym does not give his name. In verse 30 we read this: “And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen a god face to face, and my life is preserved.” Even here Jacob does not state the name “Yahweh” if he believes it, only the generic term elohiym.
You're correct to rule out Esau, because immediately AFTER this, he looks up and Esau is approaching. If he had just wrestled him, Esau would have been right there. He had not yet faced his brother for his deceptions against him.
Yes, but see below.
Why assume that the "man" is trying to prevent Jacob from fulfilling God's promise? That is never stated, and it's not as if the text says that Jacob was held back. It says he remained alone(indicating on purpose), and a man wrestled with him.
“Good Angels” do the will of God. The “wrestling angel” would have been doing the will of God. But the angel actually bends to the will of Jacob and not the intention of his own. It ends on Jacob’s terms and not the “angels.”
If this is the case, then Jacob has not bent himself to God’s will. He has done just the opposite! In all the previous scenes he has obeyed God. There is nothing in the text that suggests he isn’t obeying God now or that there is a negative consequence to the disobedience of usurping the will of God via the “angel”.
Jacob out-wrestles the “angel”. The “angel” then dislodges the hip bone. Jacob still prevails. The “angel” tells Jacob to let him go. Jacob replies that he will only if he is given a blessing. The “angel” agrees. Jacob gets his blessing and lets the “angel” go. Really, how could Jacob beat a “good angel”? (See the angels in Sodom at Genesis)
However, if the elohiym had been against God’s will, then it should not be surprising that Jacob defeats the elohiym because he IS doing God’s will.
All of this suggests that the elohiym is not doing God’s will. Thus, a “fallen” elohiym.
So then what is the elohiym’s purpose?
1) Edge of promise land
The wrestling match occurs at the outer edge of the Jabbok river. The river is a well-known natural boundary which separated the tribes of Israel from the people of Ammon (Num 21:24; Deut 2:37, 3:16; Josh 12:2). On the western side of the river is the “promise land”. Jacob has already received the promise of the land from Isaac (instead of Esau) who received it from Abraham. God promised the land to Abraham. Jacob flees Esau because he stole the “blessing” but goes to his kinsmen and finds wives and has children (children of his kinsmen who will receive the blessing from Jacob). Esau, on the other hand, has found wives among the Canaanites (Gen 28:8), displeasing his family (foreign wives and that sort of thing). Now Jacob has the blessing, he has the family, but he does not yet have the land. Therefore, Yahweh tells him to go home but that he will be with Jacob (31:3). He journey’s back to the land of the promise dreading his confrontation with Esau. Now Jacob has been seeing visions for quite a while now.
In Gen 28:11-16 at Bethel, still inside the land, Jacob has a dream about the angels and the ladder, in which Yahweh promises the land to him.
“And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I [am] the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;” (Gen 28:13)
Again in a dream in Gen 31:11, Jacob gets a vision of an angel which explicitly recalls the Bethel incident at Gen 28:11-16, telling him about the land to be acquired.
Now when he enters the area right before the Jabbok river he sees more angels.
“And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him. And when Jacob saw them, he said, This [is] God's host [or camp]: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim [meaning two camps].” (Gen 32:1-2)
Now Jacob is about to pass over the river Jabbok and into the promise land and confront Esau. He sends his family into the promise land before him.
“And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two women servants, and his eleven sons, and passed over the ford Jabbok. And he took them, and sent them over the brook, and sent over that he had. And Jacob was left alone.” (Gen 3:22ff.)
So now Jacob is alone outside the promise land and about to confront his brother to claim his blessing that God has already given him.
2. Connection with Esau
I do think there is a definite connection between the elohiym and Esau. And not just because of the wrestling and the struggling. Look at the next chapter and verse 10:
“And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of god, and thou wast pleased with me.”
The writer is making a connection here but I am not sure which. I know that some scholars think that the elohiym is Esau’s “guardian angel”. I am not prepared to go that far, though the idea does have some later precedence in the NT (see Acts 12:12-15).
3. Blessing
Another connection with Esau is mention of the “blessing.”
Jacob has struggled with Esau to receive a blessing.
Jacob struggles with the elohiym to receive a blessing.
In both situations, Jacob prevailed.
This is the prophet Hosea’s interpretation:
“The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him. He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed:” (Hosea 12:2-4)
This is the character of the elohiym’s interpretation:
“And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with a god and with men, and hast prevailed.” (Gen 32:28)
This is the character of Jacob’s interpretation:
“And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen a god face to face, and my life is preserved.” (Gen 32:30)
Thus, the connection with Esau suggests that both struggles are concerned with that of THE blessing. The evidence for such an interpretation is strengthened by the placement of the struggle just outside the border of the “blessing” (the promise land).
This is why I hold to the position that the elohiym is malicious.
It sounds as if your main two lines of argument are that 1) it sounds malicious to you, and 2) Canaanite mythology. But why enter mythology into the picture, and I've already asked about the "malicous" part.
The book is full of Canaanite mythology. The whole Bible is full of Canaanite myths. Usually, the writers are either refuting a pagan notion or showing God’s power over the pagan religion. Since Esau is considered the ancestors of the Edomites, and since a significantly identifiable amount of the Edomites worshipped pagan Canaanite gods (El, Baal, Asherah, and probably Chemosh), it shouldn’t be surprising that the J-Writer is mentioning a Canaanite “god” in order to show its impotence at the will of Yahweh.
Jacob has known all of his life that everything he had he had obtained by deceitful means, this would haunt me, and I imagine it would him as well. Being raised to believe in the One True God as he was, it would be understandable that he would recognize him when he met him, and would indicate purpose in him desiring to be blessed outside of trickery for once. It seems this was a dogged determination of Jacob finally realizing he couldn't go forward to the promised land without God being on his side. Again, desiring a blessing.
And that’s the point. He still gets a blessing thru trickery. He grabs an elohiym and doesn’t let go until he gets a blessing.
Jacob knew God was on his side the entire journey and stated as such.
Although I can definitely see your reasoning, I still disagree with the demon being as opposed to an angel. In response to 1a) I don't think the elohiyim was preventing Jacob from fulfilling God's promise, but rather the elohiyim is wrestling with Jacob b/c Jacob is not trusting God (see Jacob's prayer and follow up fearful actions in regards to seeing Esau)in the promise God has already made hence the "you have wrestled with God and man"...ie the fact that Jacob is overly fearful of Esau...this especially echoes a good interpretation given the previous verses leading up to the WWE wrestling match. I agree with 1b, it is a spirit=angel. 1c gives good proof that the elohiyiim was in fact an angel...if the elohiyim was a "fallen" angel or demon, why wouldn't Hosea read that way (if one holds to Scripture interprets Scripture, this is quite substantial evidence)?
Hosea would not have known about demons or fallen angles in the NT sense. That idea was not revealed to the Israelites and Jews until well after the exile. For Hosea to call in an angel is not wrong; just not complete. Sort of like how the book of Samuel has David call for the census but Chronicles mentions that the Satan tempted him. Neither is wrong but the Chronicles is a latter version reflecting greater revelation.
If it was an angel in the sense of being a “good angel” then why did neither Jacob or the author say as much? Angels have appeared throughout the narrative from Abraham onward. Jacob himself has seen angels on 3 different occasions (Gen 28:11-16; Gen 31:11; and also just before in Gen 32:1-2). He even spoke with one in Gen 31:11. In all these other occasions, the angels are identified by the author. In all the relevant occasions, Jacob knows that he is seeing angels. Whatever he saw in Genesis 32:30 was something far different from what he had previously experienced.
In response to 2a, the scene is dark and I believe Jacob really doesn't realize who he is wrestling with....furthermore, angels are unique in the way they look and Scripture does seem to portray them looking like men. In response to 2b, see 1a response above...it was God's bidding to have the angel wrestle with Jacob b/c of Jacob's distrust in Yahweh. In a sense, God is teaching Jacob a lesson...a lesson that will be remembered for generations (hip). In response to 2c, the goal of the angel wasn't to overpower Jacob...furthermore, even if the elohiyim was a demon, you still have the same argument to deal with...how could Jacob overpower a spirit demon?
That could be God’s purpose with the Smackdown, but such an intention does not necessarily negate the idea that the elohiym was malicious. Yahweh could have allowed the malicious “angel” to wrestle Jacob in order to teach Jacob a lesson. But I do not see anything in the prior episodes that warrant this lesson by Yahweh or any evidence that it was such a lesson. There is nothing in this episode which suggests that Jacob learned any lesson from this incident – surely nothing that made him turn further to Yahweh. Indeed, he reflects upon the episode in light of what he has experienced and not his relationship with Yahweh.
How could Jacob overpower a spirit demon? Again, if Jacob is acting according the will of Yahweh, then I would more likelier believe he would defeat a demon spirit than if he defeated an angel that was doing God’s will. Given the option, I choose Jacob’s success over the evil spirit. Anyway, Jacob “struggled” with Esau who was far stronger and powerful than himself and won.
Lastly, see above for response to 3a, 3b, 3c. 3d helps both of our arguments the same. 3i I agree with, although it helps both the same. 3ii and 3iii are on your side, I agree....however, the Hosea text, which is inspired, says angel which I think outweighs any mythology. Furthermore, your points against can be handled as seen above.
See above. A “fallen angel” is an “angel” none the less.
Lastly, thanks for the info on names and blessings...this was very insightful. Interestingly, I did notice that there was not one case of a demon or malicious spirit blessing or renaming...only other men, God, or angels. If one holds to the demon theory, one would have to say that this is the only case of a demon blessing and changing a name and the name of the Father of the Jewish nation mind you...this would not sit well with Pat Robertson (smiles).
It would be the only case of an “angel” wrestling with a man. It would be the only case of connection between an “angel” and a man (Esau) (Acts 12 just states that this was a belief and not that the belief is a reality).
Sorry, I do not catch the Pat Robertson joke. Disp(s)ensationalism?
A very insightful discussion! I learned quite a lot.
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